Oils Ain't Oils

Submitted: Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 11:55
ThreadID: 141083 Views:2012 Replies:6 FollowUps:22
Castrol 15W -40 on sale at $5/litre but label on 20 L drum says for heavy duty engines. Perhaps too thick for my 3.0 L D4D in the Prado. Maybe I could dilute it with some 5W-30 at the next oil change. Too risky? Any thoughts?
Warrie

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Reply By: OzzieCruiser - Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 12:06

Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 12:06
Just buy the correct specification oil for your engine.
AnswerID: 635078

Follow Up By: Member - Warrie (NSW) - Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 12:08

Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 12:08
Mechanic says 5W-30 for new engines and 10W if over 150k km which is my odo reading.
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 12:38

Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 12:38
Does the engine use any oil and if it does, how much and is it burning it or leaking it?
Using oil that is more viscous that necessary will cost fuel consumption.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
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Follow Up By: OzzieCruiser - Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 12:44

Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 12:44
All well and good but what does your handbook or Toyota say. If it is what your mechanic says, it is a lot different from the cheap oil you are looking at.
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Reply By: RMD - Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 12:51

Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 12:51
Warrie.
The common beliefs about oils is alarming.
I cannot see why you can't use a 15W40 in a Prado. The mechanicals are made to the same clearance specs as engines 20 years ago so the oil won't know the difference. If you understand what 5W40 or 15 W40 means is ONLY one thing. AT startup a 5W40 will flow through the engine a little quicker, and flowing oil pressure will be there in a couple of seconds, where the 15W may be 1/2 a second behind. The oil pump is a positive displacement device. It has to deliver when turning. It can't build up pressure in one place before another, so all the engine is covered. However, although thinner/less viscosity at startup, a 5w40 is the same viscosity as a 15W40 WHEN IT IS HOT, so nearly all the time your engine ever runs it is running on what viscosity a 40W oil would provide, ie. no discernable difference. A heavy duty engine, what ever that is, has much the same clearances as a smaller engine. I used to rebuild them.
I have had a Turbo Landcruiser and a Dmax , total of 35years of personal diesel engine use and all ran on 15W40. Only in very very cold climates where a bit thinner at startup may be an advantage is a 5W40 of any use.
ALL engines, diesel or petrol where I used to work ran on 15W40 Mobil Delvac Diesel oil. NO failures.

5W viscosity when cold warms up, and then the 40W aspect is what the engine runs on when hot. The oil although rated at 40W and now HOT is actually thinner than COLD 5W oil is. It is called Multi Grade.
In other words, at some time as it warms, both 5W40 and 15W40 will pass through a temp point where the oil IS the same thickness anyway and it IS the 40W which the engine relies on during it's operating time and NOT the 5W feature.
If using 5W40 the engine may use more oil than it's normal usage as thinner oil will mist in sump with blowby gas and pass the rings easier and be burnt off in the cylinders or ingested more readily VIA the EGR system.
Are you thinking it is too thick somehow, posing the question or is someone putting ideas into your head to create doubt?
PS. WHY is CASTROL cheaper?
Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Warrie (NSW) - Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 13:54

Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 13:54
Thanks RMD. The oil is on special at Supercheap and if it works at $5/ L then I'm ahead in the $$ department. But it is RX and not my usual Magnatec nor Edge so perhaps does not have a synthetic molecule in it! Just went out to read Toyota Owners Manual. It says 15W-40 is OK above -10*C so I'll be OK as even in Snowy Mtns in July 2019 it only got to -5*C. Mate with an MUX had his fuel glug up but my Prado and anothers 200 Cruiser were OK and we only had city diesel in the tank.
I should have read the manual before the post but it's always good to get the forum onto these sorts of issues as there is a wealth of experience out there.
As per below post by Allan I will not need to mix the 5W with the 15W so it looks like I'm OK there..... W
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Follow Up By: RMD - Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 14:51

Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 14:51
Warrie,
If you value your engine I would not be buying on price, cheaper oils are marketed frequently so to get volume sales. Volume sales should happen naturally because it is good oil, not cheaper, flogged as pretty decent. Magnatec means what exactly? great claim but is it real? Don't confuse that with anything MAGNETIC, please!

The comparison with fuel grade at lower temps is not to be confused with oils. Oils do thicken, ie, higher viscosity, but fuel has wax elements in the particles and is unlike engine oil. Yes fuel will WAX when very cold and cold altitude diesel has a thinner for cold use. Don't try and run it in hot climates and try to use it before warmed ambient is experienced.

Good quality oils and Synthetic oils seem to seal rings better, so less blowby and vented gasses with oil mist to be dragged in through the EGR system. So, overall oil use/burning will be less.
Just because it is $5 a litre doesn't mean it is the best for your engine. Always be discerning with any Super cheap or motor house oil offerings. It is just that our society have become used to buying, lulled into buying, from those places and a degree of advantage is exercised by those places.

Assess your engine internals and see it it is CLEAN inside the filler area and as far as you can see with an LED torch. If changing the filter and you see residue on the surface of the sealing area, ie thin film of discolouration, then the oil you are using isn't keeping the internals clean. That is a most important criteria. Most oils from normal places may not perform well. You should be able to se the dipstick through the oil on it after 5000km of use, if not it isn't sealing well or engine is tired.
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Reply By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 13:30

Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 13:30
.
Hi Warrie,

It is not advisable to mix differing oils. The following is an extract from Penrite Oils.....

"Mixing different types and viscosities of oils changes the original chemistry balance of the oil and may result in an unsuitable product for certain types of applications. So although the base oils will mix quite readily, the additive packs used in them are designed for particular applications and a combination of these is an unknown concoction in terms of performance and compatibility. In certain circumstances, putting the wrong oil into an engine can cause extensive damage to the engine or components associated with it. It is always best to use the same type, viscosity and manufacturer specification when topping up your engine oil."
Cheers
Allan

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Reply By: axle - Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 14:01

Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 14:01
G/Day Warrie,

I think RMD has covered it pretty well, I have used 15W- 40 for years in small and large engines without troubles, some do seem to have better ring sealing agents than others, less blow by, but thats just a personal opinion, my choice these days is Penrite 15w-40. ..My worry now is the wifes late model Honda talk about thin oils!, but thats the dealers problem, for the next few years, there the one carrying the warranty and the extended one.

Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: RMD - Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 16:38

Monday, Feb 15, 2021 at 16:38
G'day Axle
A little while ago someone on the sites was using Penrite in a Hilux, (same as Prado engine) and he has the oil going black early and using oil more than expected. After a suggestion, He tried Mobil Delvac and found the first drain came out exceedingly BLACK. ie, it cleaned the internals. He also found his the oil usage of the engine became less. Subsequent oil changes were not so black as the Penrite had continued to allowed it to become gunged up a bit. There is a large variations in performance of oils and since most people will never have it analysed anyway, the companies take full advantage of doing what they do. Any clean oil is better than dirty oil of course. I have tried Mobil 1 Diesel which is costly, but at 16000km the oil is nowhere near as dark as the normal Mobil Delvac is at 10,000km. Both far cleaner than other engine oils which I have seen at the same change intervals. All a personal judgement, yes, but I am particularly conscience of it all. The retained lubricity ability is what is important especially in machinery, as you know.
With monitoring, the Mobil1 Diesel is used by some trucking firms, with sampling + excellent filtering and it runs to way more than 20,000km per change and saves the companies money.
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Follow Up By: Member Kerry W (Qld) - Friday, Feb 19, 2021 at 11:31

Friday, Feb 19, 2021 at 11:31
Interesting _ I have used Penrite since the 1980s and found it to be excellent especially its Limslip140 for the Patrol LSDs and their gear oils. However during Covid I bought some HPR30 online through a Major Australian Retailer and used it in an older GQ patrol with a RB30 petrol and noticed for the first time ever the oil was dirty after 2,000 slow klms. I thought maybe the old girl is getting old or I was just doing too much slow lugging (log snigging etc etc) Maybe there is a problem with this later batch of oil as I have never had this before and have maintained quite a few vehicles for family and busineses. Interesting to see if anyone else can realate to this....
Kerry W (Qld)
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Saturday, Feb 20, 2021 at 08:02

Saturday, Feb 20, 2021 at 08:02
Hi Kerry,

Could it be that the additives in the HPR30 have “cleaned” all the “gunk” from the engine and/or sump causing it to go black?

Macca
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Follow Up By: Member Kerry W (Qld) - Saturday, Feb 20, 2021 at 10:46

Saturday, Feb 20, 2021 at 10:46
Hi Macca - Yep, thanks, I have noticed how Penrite will clean a lot of gunk out of some engines but with this - No chance - have used Penrite and nothing else in that donk for 21 years - I watch my oils carefully thats why I noticed it was darker after 2000k than ever before, I really put it down to a lot of short stop/start lugging work around our property and no long runs and I guess engine is now at almost 370,000ks and still original (thats not unusual for an RB30 or for Penrite) so may be normal wear and tear too. Just following up RMDs comments re the Hilux on Penrite as it suggested a change in the performance of the Penrite oil they were using. Doesnt make any sense to me - knowing Penrite as well as I do - rebuilt quite a few engines back inthe 80s and 90s and noticed how well penrite, cured glazed bores, protected, worked well in diffs gearboxes etc...besides how many people can actually say how well their oils perform if they turn their vehicles over every "few" years - instead of observing a vehicle over 20 years or so.....unless actually rebuilding engines they know the history of...
Kerry W (Qld)
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Follow Up By: axle - Monday, Feb 22, 2021 at 10:53

Monday, Feb 22, 2021 at 10:53
Hi Kerry, I feel the same way in regard to Mobil Delvac oils, Back in the 70s &80s we used to experience way to much premature wear usingDelvac oils. There was a poster on here who was involved in earthmoving
for years and he said the same thing , something in that oil was not right. I've never touched it since and probably never will.

Cheers Axle
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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Tuesday, Feb 23, 2021 at 18:53

Tuesday, Feb 23, 2021 at 18:53
Fuchs is another oil I have experienced very bad things with.
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Reply By: Member - McLaren3030 - Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 08:57

Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 08:57
Hi Warrie,

There are a lot of people out there that buy the cheapest engine oil, and then rave about how good it is. After 35 years in the Oil Industry, one thing I can tell you, is Oils ain’t Oils. The best engine oils take years of research and development, including “real world” testing to get the standard of protection that they claim. Buying a “no name” engine oil, or one with a “distributor” name, is not necessarily going to give you the engine protection that may be required.

All of the major oil companies manufacture to the highest standards, that is why they have been in business for as long as they have. So whether you buy Castrol, Mobil, Penrite, Shell etc. rest assured in the knowledge that there are years of research and development behind their product.

Both RMD and Allan have explained the difference between the various grades and how they work quite well. Look up what grade of engine oil is recommended by the engine manufacturer, and stick to that.

As an aside, Toyota have engine oil under their own brand name. It is manufactured by one of the major oil companies to specifications set down by Toyota. I can tell you that it closely mimics Mobil 1, and there is a good reason for that.

Macca.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 10:15

Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 10:15
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Totally agree with you Macca.

These established companies as you have named, have spent many years and dollars to research, develop, maintain and improve their product. They have good reasons to protect their investments. Yet there are vehicle owners who believe that they can ignore their recommendations and the the specification of the engine builder.

Only a dummy would spend thousand on purchasing his vehicle then deviate from OEM instruction and stint on maintaining it.


Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - Warrie (NSW) - Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 10:47

Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 10:47
Hmmm, here's a glitch. Shell Helix 15W -40 on special at Repco - 20 L for 70 bucks. Ouch, I just paid $100 for 20L Castrol RX. Yet Repco's computer says this is not suitable for my D4D Prado!!!! But my Toyota manual says to use 15W -40. So following the good reasoning by posters above:
1. I am using reputable brands in Castrol or Shell. 2. I have got the correct viscosity. 3. So now it's down to price. That Helix is better value than Valvoline at Woolies - and I'm drawing the line at oil from them LOL. Oh and I hope you all remembered the Castrol TV ad from the 70's with the mafia don and Sol.....Cheers....W
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 11:43

Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 11:43
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Life's full of predicaments Warrie. Go with the 'Family'. lol

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: RMD - Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 12:02

Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 12:02
Macca
I too agree with what you mentioned.
I bought a Second hand Corolla from a Toyota dealer yard. It had at least had the engine oil changed and that oil performed very well and stayed clean for far longer than other oils I have seen used. Yes very similar to Mobil 1 in my experience. I will maybe, use Castrol, never Shell or Valvoline. Had two very bad failures with Valvoline oil. The second was Valvoline in my sons early Toyota Corolla. Valvoline in, and at the 10,000km change it was the sickest and most horrible oil ever seen. No lubricity to speak of and a strange scum on the drained oil surface. Never seen anything like it before or since.

Just a note to Warrie, REPCO is simply a reseller of anything they can get to sell, not an oil company who knows their own product, so I would be careful taking notice of popular resellers of oils, they are not oil experts. For a while I was buying oil for my Suzuki 1000vtwin. from a factory source I was buying the 4 litres for $17 less than Supercheap sold it. Supercheap was eager to know more.
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Follow Up By: axle - Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 14:29

Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 14:29
This is going to end up like the tyre discussions, someone gets 80,000ks out of a brand then the next bloke says their chit i only got 35,000ks ......lol.


Cheers Axle.

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Reply By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 12:21

Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 12:21
.
One solution is to never change the oil at all.......

I once knew a bloke who was a genius at buying a reasonable car dirt cheap. He made sure it had good tyres and a bit of rego. Never changed the oil and did no maintenance whatsoever.
Kept it for maybe a year or until the tyres were bald, then sold it for as much as he paid for it.
Always had wheels under him and his only cost was fuel.

Like I say.... a genius!!!
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 12:39

Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 12:39
When I was a young bloke I had an uncle who reckoned that changing your oil was a marketing scam by the manufacturers and he never changed the oil on his Hillman Hunter.
He might of been onto something because he died before the Hillman did.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 18:14

Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 18:14
.
Alby, that doesn't sound like a good scheme to adopt! lol
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - nickb "boab" - Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 18:23

Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 18:23
That True ! you dont need to change oil in a British made vehicle Land rover Morris Triumph Just need to keep topping up .. LOL :))))
Cheers Nick b
VKS 737 ( 0915 )
Wish the missus was as dirty as the tailgate

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Follow Up By: Rob J8 - Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 21:11

Tuesday, Feb 16, 2021 at 21:11
I drove for a coach company here in Busselton for a few years who very seldom changed the oil in their 0404 V8 Mercedes coaches. Their theory was they never get cold as they travelled Busselton, Perth, Busselton every day. Of the 6 different coaches I drove, only 1 had a major breakdown and that was a turbo, oil up the back of the coach.
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Follow Up By: jeff r - Wednesday, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:12

Wednesday, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:12
Yes Rob J8. A very close friend of mine of 50 years told me that the NSW State bus service changed engine oil (Castrol) every 60,000Km. He should know as he was a maintenance manager at one of the sydney depots. I was shocked to learn that one I can tell you.
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Follow Up By: RMD - Wednesday, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:51

Wednesday, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:51
Jeff r
I presume the friend did not elaborate on the frequency of engine replacements seeing it was a gov owned enterprise. Did the engines have superior oil filtering to normal? Would be good to see the figures on engine life of similar vehicles owned by people who had to pay for engine replacements or rebuilds.
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