Kiwirrkurra to Balgo track - Closed for public access

Hi - Just a thought.
Maybe change it to: "Private - No Unauthorised Access".
Speaking with the right people with the right attitude I'm sure some members of the public will be allowed.

Cheers
Alan

The only option is one of the defined status tags. I'm not sure off the top of my head what they all are but the correct one will be selected so the output is correct.
Michelle

The way I've read it is the the TO's have decided to exercise their rights to disallow folk to travel on this route as a result of previous folk ignoring the need for permits, littering & disrespecting the country they were travelling through. So hardly 'arbitrary'. Blame those who caused the closure, not those who closed it. Just saying....

Hi Cuppa.

I subsequently asked the community why they aren't issuing permits and they replied a day ago, as follows - verbatim, unedited:

"Thank you for your email.

We see it is as pretty straightforward - pastoralists and other private landholders are allowed to utilise their land for economic benefit and don’t permit the public to roam around their properties. We are asking for the public to show the same respect for Kiwirrkurra People’s land holdings.

There are additional reasons such as safety, our relationships with mining/exploration partners, and concerns about interference with cultural sites and environmental sensitive areas we receive funding to care for.

Tourism is a key economic opportunity for Kiwirrkurra People, and we are working on ways to facilitate exciting and appropriate activities. But with all businesses, these operations take time to develop. We look forward to updating you on these opportunities in due course".

No mention there of any punters 'disrespecting' etc. So where is your evidence on this, for this area/track - just 'shooting off' I guess.

And, just refusing because they can; so, indeed, arbitrary.

I wouldn't mind so much as when pastoralists close access but there is a difference. Pastoralists pay their bills and create wealth and rural/regional prosperity (even tho they also cause great environmental harms, but then again, who doesn't these days...).

TO's leach off the State, ie, via my taxes, and give stuff all back, in the main (I acknowledge exceptions). And, in the specific case of this, the track in question, When I previously traveled it I noted that there are at least two abandoned communities on it; structures just derelict

More waste. Over the years in the outback I have come across at least eight of these abandoned outstations - utter waste. How many more of them are dotted around the land; must run up to a hundred, or more?

TO's; they take, give zip back, then ask for more.

Just saying.

Cheers. JB.

John as I read your response my intention was to reply to you to explain my understanding, but by the end of your post I decided I would be wasting my time. Like so many who express similar beliefs you observe from outside & interpret what you see to fit your pe-existing racist views in a manner both ignorant & arrogant.

I believe it is attitudes such as you show that are the cause of the closures you complain about, but I don't expect for a moment that you would consider this as a possibility.

We can agree to disagree, but I see no point in trying to argue the toss about this with you.

Hi Cuppa.

I sort of agree that not much is to be gained by further mutual interchange on matters Indigenous.

However, I can't let your riposte pass without putting on the record that I am not racist - I really really really hope Kamala Harris wins later this year, for instance. And I have the greatest respect for most Indigenous Elders, Linda Burney and a host of other fabulous contributors besides comes to mind.

But... you don't have to be racist to be observant of realities.

Cheers.

John.

Seems to me that we are going down the same path as South Africa where handing back land led to economic stagnation or worse. Going back to the jungle doesn't help anyone I reckon.
As John states, 'But...You dont have to be a racist to be observant of the realities.'

Hurling a 'racist' tag on anyone who comments about the truths is just lazy, or an excuse to not have to try to justify the inequities,

Ups and Downs,

"But...You dont have to be a racist to be observant of the realities."

Of course not, but when the language used is negatively judgemental, the chances of it being so are high.

And then of course there are the 'realities'. Those being having much of what once told you about who you were & where you belonged taken away, & then given stuff that others told you needed, & then blamed you for being wasteful when they got it wrong.

Same sort of process when the email reply to the question was received. Question was answered tactfully & appropriately , only to be dismissed as "And, just refusing because they can; so, indeed, arbitrary" without any apparent consideration of an awareness on the part of the respondent of being 'damned if you do & damned if you don't'.

Your 'truths' are not the truths of all.

Hi Cuppa.

I hadn't intended to re-join this discussion but since you offered an opinion on the content of one of my posts, ie, you say: "Question was answered tactfully & appropriately , only to be dismissed as "And, just refusing because they can; so, indeed, arbitrary" without any apparent consideration of an awareness on the part of the respondent of being 'damned if you do & damned if you don't'....

Although I had thought it was self evident, I obviously need to spell out why I continue to find the decision to not grant permits in future as 'arbitrary'.

So, the reason is that my community correspondent offers no 'good' reasons.

Nothing has changed 'out there'.

For decades punters have enjoyed this track and now can't.

All the reasons given, though well written and polite, are of smoke and mirrors. Punters have not impacted on sensitive sites and it's not claimed they have - only it's implied that they might. I might add that I saw absolutely no cultural sites cautionary signage 'out there'.

The 'safety' issue is also just a smokescreen cover to attempt to land some credibility to the refusal. If 'safety' in remote desert areas really is a problem, then why not lock the whole of the centre up?

Look, I hesitate to join you in the name calling department but you do appear to somewhat of a well meaning apologist for anything the TO's do 'out there' no matter how unreasonable they might be (and here I'm also observing multiple past posts by you as well, on related matters) .

Finally, I am not against closures per se - for instance I (sadly) concur with the Calvert Range closure off the CSR. The reasons provided are mostly cogent and well argued - see https://www.canningstockroute.net.au/closedareas

I am just against 'arbitrary' closures.

Bye for now.

Cheers.

JB.

Not an apologist John, unless by apologist you mean someone who supports all people's rights being respected. In fact I am as disappointed as yourself that permits are not being given for travel on that track. I was hoping to go that way next year. But I do accept that it is the TO's right to not provide permits & I am p*ssed off that they have felt it necessary to take the action that they have.

You cannot know whether sensitive sites, cultural or environmental, have been impacted by folk travelling up that way, & certainly couldn't expect that you would be provided with details of this in an email.

Bottom line is that whether 'abitrary' or otherwise, the TO's do have the right to control what does or doesn't happen on their country, & it is this very point which *always* seems to be taken as an invitation to criticise. In doing so it shows disrespect for those people's rights & shoots those making that criticism in the foot. The argument appears to be that aboriginal people shouldn't shouldn't have the rights that they have (& for many that their rights should therefore be disregarded, especially when the exercising of those rights denies something that other Australians consider 'their' traditional 'right').

Well they do have rights ...... and attitudes which suggest otherwise are what will see more & more aboriginal country either closed off to outsiders, or only opened in ways they can control.

I share the concern about more & more parts of this country being 'locked up', but as a non aboriginal person I think we need to look at ourselves & our relationships, specific & broadly with Australia's first nations peoples for the reasons.

The way the referendum went down was never going to be an outcome without consequences. We reap what we sow .... and it needn't have been this way.

I might see if I can get a lawyer to sue the Italians because the Romans took my ancestors land in 54BC.

UPs & Downs.

"I might see if I can get a lawyer to sue the Italians because the Romans took my ancestors land in 54BC."

I'm guessing from that statement that you probably subscribe to the old "We won, they lost, they should get over it" view?

1. 'They' didn't lose
2. 'They' are still here
3. 'They' are still holding on to the culture which held them in good stead for many thousand years despite 'our' relatively young culture, which arrogantly & ignorantly always acts like it knows best, & doing it's best to wipe out what it doesn't understand rather than learning from it.
4. The attempt to 'win' which has never been successful despite attempts over generations, & continuing today will never succeed. It only continues as a stain on all of us as Australians. The world sees this.
5. Statements such as you have made is an attempt to change history by claiming a victory over a people which has never happened. Repetition over generations has never made it true.
6. It is 'us' who need to build a bridge & get over it.

Come on!

"Holding on to a culture that held them in good stead for many thousands of years.'

Yeah right. Then why aren't they aren't still practising it? Because living under a tree or a rock cave is great for a holiday but as a way of life, apparently they don't go for it either. That's if what I see is correct in that they are always asking white men to build them more/better houses.

Just why is it that they're always on the scrounge, looking for hand outs?

However I am wasting my time, as are you, in debating this issue.
We both have our views and just as I'm not going to change I'm sure you won't either.

So no more from me.

Yes I agree, you are wasting your time, and sadly, for all of us, you are far from alone.

I live in hope that I will see Australia grow enough to reach adulthood in my lifetime.