Wiring an Eberspatcher heater

Submitted: Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 19:13
ThreadID: 140426 Views:9110 Replies:11 FollowUps:20
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Should you wire an Eberspatcher heater (or any other diesel heater) through a circuit breaker or a fuse at the battery?

My supplier says that circuit breakers "upset" these heaters and is using this an an excuse for the problems I have had with my Chinese Belief Eberspatcher copy. It's already failed three times and has been back to the factory twice. So I am upgrading to the Eberspatcher.

My van has been professionally wired to marine standard under the supervision of a marine electrician and runs completely above earth with nothing earthed on the chassis. It has a 400 AH Lithium battery supply with a big solar array and a 60 amp DC charger. Battery voltage varies from 13.0 when low to 14.3 on charge and 13.65 on float.

Can any Diesel heater operators tell me whether breakers can upset these heaters?
Thanks in advance.
Keith
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Reply By: Member - Racey - Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 19:42

Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 19:42
Keith, I doubt it would be a circuit breaker causing a problem unless it is a very small rating.
I think you should describe exactly what the issue is, then we can make a real assessment.

Cheers
Racey
AnswerID: 633139

Reply By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 19:52

Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 19:52
.
Keith, ALL circuits should be protected by either a fuse or circuit breaker in order to disconnect the circuit if the current exceeds the rating of the wiring. This overload may be from either connecting excessive loads or due to a short circuit of the wiring or within an accessory connected to that circuit. There is no justification to not employ such protection. To operate without over-current protection is to risk equipment damage and fire.

Furthermore, there is no reason why a correctly specified fuse or circuit breaker would cause problem to "these heaters" or any other appliance. An inappropriate or faulty fuse or breaker may cause poor operation of connected appliances in much the same way as would inappropriate wiring, connections or battery supply.

I suspect that your heater supplier is looking for an excuse to blame for poor operation of your heater.
Cheers
Allan

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AnswerID: 633140

Reply By: Keith B2 - Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 20:30

Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 20:30
Thanks you for your replies. Just to explain:

A locker at the front contains the heater furnace with its tank and fuel pump, a Hydrastar brake unit and a single ARB compressor for the suspension.

Each is individually fused through a waterproof distribution enclosure on the side of the locker with bus bars fed by a pair of heavy cables via a 100 amp breaker.

The main distribution point is a pair of 300 amp insulated posts connected by humungous cables about six feet from the battery, protected by a 300 amp fuse. These posts take the charging inputs (60 amp DC-DC, 80 amp solar, 70 amp DC/1.6 KW inverter charger) and distribute power to the 100 amp breaker for the locker as well as 12 smaller breakers for lights, pumps, fridge, AV and so on.

This system enables us to run an aircon overnight off the batteries.
That's basically the setup.
We have never blown a breaker or a fuse.
So what's with the heater? Is the voltage variation too much?
Are there any diesel heaters running through circuit breakers?
Keith
AnswerID: 633141

Follow Up By: 3ways - Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 22:08

Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 22:08
Keith our Esbersparcher diesel heater is protected by circuit breaker from factory. Zero problems in 6 years of use.
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Follow Up By: Keith B2 - Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 22:19

Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 22:19
Thanks for that. I think I am being sold a pup on this one.
Keith
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Follow Up By: Member - Racey - Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 22:38

Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 22:38
Keith, you still haven't said what the issue is.
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Reply By: HKB Electronics - Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 22:02

Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 22:02
A lot of people install the heaters in cupboards etc, Wesbasto state for their if the units are to be installed in a locker it should be a large ventilated locker to prevent the heater over heating.

Self resetting circuit breakers may cause issues if they for some reason turn off the unit while it is heating and prevent the unit going through its normal run down cycle. Same applies if the unit has a power on/off switch, power should not be turned off to the unit until after it has shut itself down.

As long as the breaker is rated correctly and is not false tripping shouldn't be a problem using one.

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AnswerID: 633142

Reply By: RMD - Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 22:45

Thursday, Aug 27, 2020 at 22:45
Keith
It appears the supplier has chosen an external component to blame for whatever is happening. At the present we do not know what the problem is, simply you have a problem. As Racey suggested, tell us what the problem is. You mentioned ample wiring for all the gear you have but not the wiring size and length to the actual heater. You probably do not need a different heater, possibly just the one you have setup so it doesn't give trouble.

A breaker will cut off power if draw is to much at startup and shut down. a resetting one will seem to be ok but still be trouble if too small. If breaker is never opening when you have the problem, then the breaker isn't the problem. Simple to test during operation with a small globe or LED indicator across the heater supply at the heater. So, what was the failure???? M
Mine has a fuse in it's positive supply, and a master isolator switch too, so it's controller is not active when not required.
AnswerID: 633144

Reply By: Gbc.. - Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 07:18

Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 07:18
Mine will draw 8-9a on startup and I had problems with fuses blowing because of the current through shitty Chinese wiring. I got advice to put the next size up fuse in (yes, dodgy). I have had zero further issue. Mine was when the fuel pump would kick about 20 seconds after pressing start.
AnswerID: 633145

Follow Up By: RMD - Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 13:37

Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 13:37
Gbc
"Shitty" chinese wiring cannot be the problem with blowing a fuse, If dodgy enough, the wiring will reduce the current flow when heater plugs draws current and not blow a fuse. All you have done is force the start with a bigger fuse. same wiring isn't it?
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Follow Up By: Gbc.. - Sunday, Aug 30, 2020 at 14:50

Sunday, Aug 30, 2020 at 14:50
Unless the fuse they supplied was under specced in the first place. Just back from a weekend camping, it ran both nights spot on.
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Reply By: Genny - Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 09:19

Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 09:19
I know nothing, but here is a link to fault-finding diesel heaters. There are some links at the end of the page to lists of error codes. I seem to recall someone saying that often the wires supplied with heaters are a little on the light side.

Diesel Air Heaters
AnswerID: 633148

Reply By: Keith B2 - Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 09:22

Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 09:22
All breakers are manual reset and the wiring run using the supplied loom from the bus to the heater is about 80cm. The supplied loom was way too long and bulky for my installation, so I had it shortened up by my marine sparky and it worked just fine.

PROBLEM #1. I did not realise that the heater, as well as bringing in enough air for combustion, it also brings in a huge amount of air to keep the furnace cool. I had the air inlet inside the cabinet and the vents on the cabinet weren't enough to cope when the cabinet door was closed. Tripped on overheat. Ran fine with the door open, so I relocated the air inlet outside the cabinet and all was well. This was my fault of course, but there is nothing in the instructions about this issue.

PROBLEM #2. Heater would not start. Returned to supplier for a new glow plug and all was well.

PROBLEM #3. Heater starting and tripping intermittently. Fault traced to a dodgy connection in the factory supplied plug set. Replaced with expensive German marine plug and socket set and all was well.

PROBLEM #4. Heater would not start with no error message. Sent to supplier who could not run diagnostics because of the non standard German plug. Replaced the CPU, which came with the old standard plug and sent a whole new loom for me to reinstall the standard plug as they do not stock spare plugs. All at my expense. After that all was well.

PROBLEM #5. Heater tripped out in sub zero weather. Added 10% kero to the fuel, cleared the fuel lines and replaced the filter and pump. It restarted after at lot of smoking, burping and farting and all was well.

PROBLEM #6. Heater would not start and drew only 2 amps when it tried to do so. No error message, Voltages at startup checked and all were good. After some long chats on the phone a workaround produced an error message showing a failed flame failure device.

So I ordered a new Eberspatcher to replace the Chinese Belief unit which I thing has been a dud from Day One. It should arrive today or tomorrow, The supplier is still saying that the problem could be the 100 amp circuit breaker.

I just think its a crap heater, which is supposed to supply hot water, an internal fan heater and a heated towel rail. The aircon on mains power has kept us from freezing.

Keith

Keith
AnswerID: 633149

Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 09:46

Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 09:46
.
Geeez Keith, have you walked under a ladder or something? lol
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 12:42

Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 12:42
100A circuit breaker on wiring that is most likely rated for 10A-20A sounds like an electrical fire waiting to happen:(

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Follow Up By: RMD - Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 13:43

Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 13:43
HKB
Yes, I agree, talk about having an Elephant gun to kill a mouse. 10 times overkill by marine electrician. Maybe that is why some boats burn to the waterline.
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Follow Up By: RMD - Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 14:22

Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 14:22
Keith.
I know there can be faulty gear but:
The breaker CANNOT be the problem, that only ensures the wiring will catch fire before the heater does.
The amount of recirculatory airflow, which is the cool intake, and hot air exit side has to be free flow. Having the intake in a mostly sealed cupboard seems to be a large oversight by installer. ie, not much idea of the unit. It may not be specifically mentioned in the blurb but do you know of any heaters which run with a severely restricted intake airflow?
Do you really think the suppliers run a diagnostic test? They simply replace stuff to make things work. Yes, they know about replacing heater glow plugs of course.

The wiring plug. DO you mean to say the supplier could not test it because they don't know enough about what they sell to simply connect the wires in same combination, no matter which plug has been fitted to wiring. Not very good at doing anything are they?

When you say , "the heater tripped out" is it that it stopped? What tripping of what was happening? Sounds like the diesel flow is restricted or tank cap vent not
venting. You DID test it with cap off didn't you? Replacing the pump and filter is not a solution if filter is clean and passes fuel and the pump delivers to the burn chamber. There is always some smoke and burping as you start after a system fuel line bleed.
If the heater is only drawing around 2 amps at start up, then the heater glow plug is NOT working and of course the flame failure will say no flame because the hasn't been any flame.
The supplier still holding to the breaker issue indicates they have no idea of anything related to the heater apart from some info they have been forced to learn because of trouble from customers. They buy a few additional bits of heaters to have the required "stock or spares" for warranty. They will guard them closely and blame anything they can. PS. If these glow plugs are a bit voltage sensitive, then the thin Chinese wiring will allow them to work/heat and last. If supplied with great wiring, no voltage drop, while operating on a system having higher than normal system voltage it may begin to burn out any heater glow plugs everytime. Perhaps the thin wiring is there for a current control reason. They will be made to a minimal spec. Just observations from what has been said.
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Follow Up By: Member - Racey - Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 15:18

Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 15:18
Crikey Keith, I'm almost sorry I asked :-)

I think RMD covered just about everything. I started out with an Eberspatcher which ran well for about ten yrs. Unfortunately it packed up 3 yrs ago along the Oonadatta track. Closest repair/parts Adelaide or Rockhampton. They are great heaters, but genuine parts are expensive, as are the heaters. Ordered a 3kw PAP heater on Ebay $499 had it delivered to Longreach and installed it in Barcalden. Recently had a minor problem with the display, contacted the seller who replaced it for the cost of postage. Clearly there are heaters and heater. Also good dealers and not so good dealers. Hope all goes well with the Eberspatcher.
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Reply By: Keith B2 - Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 16:41

Friday, Aug 28, 2020 at 16:41
Thanks for all of the follow ups.

The 100 amp breaker is for the distribution board that supplies all the gear in the front gear locker. Each item has its own rated fuse.
The fuel caps are properly vented (two 10 litre tanks) as I found when I blew back through them from the filter and heard bubbles from both tanks with the caps closed.

The Eberspatcher did not arrive in today's post, which was a disappointment. But I got the manual by email and was quite impressed with the detail and trouble shooting guide.

Funny, after whingeing about my wiring, the supplier said it was perfectly fine to plug the Eberspatcher into the existing circuit as the plugs are a match. Go figure.

Keith
AnswerID: 633156

Follow Up By: RMD - Saturday, Aug 29, 2020 at 13:32

Saturday, Aug 29, 2020 at 13:32
Keith
Blowing air back through the line will still cause bubbles into the diesel volume even if the cap is on and the cap is blocked, because unless the tank is full of fuel you will be able to administer some air into the tank causing bubbles. and it appears OK. Unless you did that for a while to ensure continual airflow out through the caps venting hole it doesn't necessarily prove much. Do the caps on both tanks have clear holes through. If a gasket has been added then that would restrict the air inward flow. Just check it for clearance because if it is a problem no heater will work for long as the pump is just a pulse unit and not really a suction pump as such.
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Reply By: Keith B2 - Saturday, Aug 29, 2020 at 10:08

Saturday, Aug 29, 2020 at 10:08
Just got a call from the heater supplier who say they have accidentally sent the replacement heater to our home in Sydney. It should have gone to the caravan park in Orange where we are waiting while the engine is being replaced in our blown up 200 Series.

They are promising to send a second heater to Orange on Monday for Wednesday delivery, by which time we may have our Landcruiser back.

This has not been a happy trip.
Keith
AnswerID: 633169

Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Saturday, Aug 29, 2020 at 10:13

Saturday, Aug 29, 2020 at 10:13
.
I think it's worse than "walking under a ladder" Keith.
You must have offended a witch!
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: RMD - Saturday, Aug 29, 2020 at 13:38

Saturday, Aug 29, 2020 at 13:38
Keith
Not a good holiday at all, makes it really hard to bear when things go wrong. Interested to know what fault is with the 200 series, ie, blown up as you mentioned. Any alert for problems is good to pass onto others so to avoid similar things happening and to take any precautions which may become apparent.
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Follow Up By: Keith B2 - Sunday, Aug 30, 2020 at 06:46

Sunday, Aug 30, 2020 at 06:46
I'll start a new thread on the engine blowup once we know a bit more about what caused it. Looks at this stage like dust damage.
Compression right down on two cylinders and dust already evident in the intake ducting to the turbos. Needs a new engine.
Keith
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Sunday, Aug 30, 2020 at 10:54

Sunday, Aug 30, 2020 at 10:54
I feel your pain, Keith, having just been through an engine replacement for my BT50. Statutory warranty job well outside manufacturer's warranty period, but with some personal choices and towing fees it cost me about $1500 - chicken feed compared to what I could have been up for, so I'm not complaining.

Good luck with yours.

FrankP

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Follow Up By: RMD - Sunday, Aug 30, 2020 at 16:57

Sunday, Aug 30, 2020 at 16:57
Keith
Have heard of, not seen, a number of 200 series which have sucked in dust past faulty fitting air filter and airbox. Known fault with later Toyotas unfortunately. I will await your post to come of the issue. Was it dealer serviced? no excuse if so, because they knew of the problem at the outset.
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Reply By: Keith B2 - Wednesday, Sep 02, 2020 at 15:55

Wednesday, Sep 02, 2020 at 15:55
The new Eberspatcher arrived this morning and it is now in and running, using the old wiring loom, circuit breaker and all.
It is only 4KW compared with the 5KW Belief unit, but seems to cycle up from cold much faster. Maybe German Kilowatts are bigger than Chinese ones.
It is also vastly quieter. There is no ticking fuel pump and the exhaust noise is considerably less than a typical roof mounted RV aircon.
If it hangs in there, I could not be more pleased.
Keith
AnswerID: 633238

Follow Up By: Member - John - Wednesday, Sep 02, 2020 at 17:17

Wednesday, Sep 02, 2020 at 17:17
Keith, you fitted new fuel pump, exhaust and air intake also?
John and Jan

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Follow Up By: Keith B2 - Wednesday, Sep 02, 2020 at 18:36

Wednesday, Sep 02, 2020 at 18:36
John the fuel pump is inside the furnace and is as quiet as you like. Apart from removing the old fuel pump, the new furnace slotted straight in, with no other mods. E6verything fitted perfectly.
I have an Eberspatcher wiring loom on hand in case the Chinese one gives problems. I had the Chinese one specially shortened up to suit and am loath the replace it. Both looms come with yards and yards of cable.
Keith
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Wednesday, Sep 02, 2020 at 18:49

Wednesday, Sep 02, 2020 at 18:49
Glad you got the heater sorted.

What's happening with the 200's engine replacement?

My saga hasn't finished. It started in Feb and now I have a $400 issue because they re-used a sensor that is "one-shot", ie if removed must be replaced with a new one according to the factory manual. They didn't and it failed.

It should be simple, but it won't be. They've already denied liability.

Good luck with yours
FrankP

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Follow Up By: Keith B2 - Saturday, Sep 05, 2020 at 17:24

Saturday, Sep 05, 2020 at 17:24
The heater is still working like a beauty and my wife reports that the hot shower now lasts a lot longer.
The mechanics have had to order a new engine mount for some reason and the vehicle won't be back till Wednesday. Denise flies home on Monday as she has patients to see.
I'll hang around Orange for a few days to make sure the vehicle runs okay plus get a bit of towing time in before returning home.
This was supposed to be a test run for our new home built off road caravan, but it hasn't seen a dirt road yet!
Keith
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