catch can

Submitted: Friday, Jan 12, 2018 at 20:08
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any thoughts on a catch can for a ford ranger px series 1 , 3.2 engine ? thanks for future answers
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Reply By: 9900Eagle - Friday, Jan 12, 2018 at 20:54

Friday, Jan 12, 2018 at 20:54
I have had a px 3.2 l from 2012, I don't use a catch but I will say the egr is blocked off. I blocked the egr at the 10000K mark

The reason I don't use a catch can is. I don't mind a bit of oil mist going into the engine and lubing the valves and head as this is a good thing. I have had no problems with any sensors and on inspection the charge air piping is very clean. I have checked my boost sensor which is close to the intake manifold and it is clean as.

Main problem is when oil mist and egr feed mix, that is when the gunk starts to accumulate in the intake manifold and head around the valves. The mass air flow sensor is just adjacent to the air filter and is not effected by oil fumes.

Mine has done a lot of K's working with no problems. Then again it is looked after
driving and service wise, it has a 3 inch exhaust wit a straight through muffler, this is surprisingly quiet with a 100 cell cat to keep internal engines temps down.


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Follow Up By: mike39 - Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 07:29

Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 07:29
Very much agree with the valve seat cushioning and upper ring lubrication due to the oil mist from the PCV system on a non EGR diesel.

I have seen 'dozer and excavator engines with 10-15000 hours logged with absolutely minimum bore and valve seat wear.

A MAN air cooled diesel operating an oil well pump in W. Qld. I saw had 44000 hrs. running on de waxed oil from the well with no other servicing than oil changes and injectors.
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Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 09:43

Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 09:43
Bit OT, Slow & Mike, but will be interesting to see if any of these "new" diesels will rack(pun?) up the hours that the old style engines did.

We had a Hatz 3 cyl 25kva genset, bought new, that clocked up just over 40K hours before we pensioned it off and bought a bigger Hino unit. Other than normal servicing, only needed 1 or 2 minor repairs.

On these V8 Landcruisers, we had a young bloke that did some contracting, did a lot of kms/week, and drove the ute like he hated it. While he did have some other "issues" like brakes, tyres and side-swiping the odd Gidgea tree, the engine clocked up over a million kms, with normal servicing. So maybe these newbies might last............

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Follow Up By: Batt's - Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 17:11

Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 17:11
If this oil mist is actually helping to lube the valves then would that mean the intake valves are getting lubed and the exhaust valves are missing out.

In the past vehicles expelled the oil vapour directly into the atmosphere which is not a good thing. So these days due to stricter air pollution regulations it is returned to the engine so it can accumulate in intercoolers line the walls of the intake hoses with a film of oil, enter the intake manifold so it can be burned off and the extra toxins are still emitted into the atmosphere via the exhaust which is still not a good thing. This over time can result in decreasing the engines fuel economy and power which in very counteractive.


So installing a catch can should be beneficial for the engine as the mist is collected as a solid and not burned off into the air we breath as gas and can be disposed of in a safer manner. Or it can be filtered and returned to the sump via a hose off the catch can.
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 17:13

Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 17:13
Hey Bob, hello and I'm not believe I am thinking slower as the years roll on.

I don't know how long the newer light vehicle engines will go for but as you say some are getting high in the kilometers so I guess time will tell.

Heavy engines appear to be coping very well and the later ones are not showing many problems at all now the yanks have ironed out the egr temperature problems.

The Europeans have been getting right for a long time now in the heavy truck section.

Have to wait a couple of years yet, but I will be very interested when they get Nikola trucks up and running to see what their results are on long haul.
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 18:34

Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 18:34
A person that specialises in servicing Prado's says don't use a catch can on them as he has always found that motors that have catch cans fitted have lower compression ratios on high mileage motors.

Don't shoot the messenger just repeating what he says he has found.

Pers I will be getting the EGR function turned off in my Prado when I can get round to it and leaving the plumbing as standard.
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Follow Up By: Batt's - Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 20:38

Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 20:38
That's an odd claim from a specialist I always thought as any motor ages it will loose compression there must be more to this statement.
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 21:36

Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 21:36
He's just stating he has found with similar mileage motors those without catch cans fitted have high compression figures than those with catch cans fitted and doesn't recommend fitting them. This would seem to imply the though oil mist in the PVC gas is beneficial to engine life though probably not by design.


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Follow Up By: Member -Pinko (NSW) - Sunday, Jan 14, 2018 at 11:10

Sunday, Jan 14, 2018 at 11:10
My local mechanic has a rural very busy workshop states to me that dismantling and decoking blocked intake manifolds is fast becoming a major part of his work.
Like employing a mechanic just to do this work.
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Reply By: Frank P (NSW) - Friday, Jan 12, 2018 at 23:18

Friday, Jan 12, 2018 at 23:18
I agree with Eagle's reasoning above (AnswerID: 616051)

If you don't block the EGR then I believe a catch can is essential and the sooner the better.

I've had one from 5000km on my 2014 BT50 (engine the same as PX1 Ranger). Now at 70,000km and no cooked carbon buildup and no issues.

AnswerID: 616054

Follow Up By: Paul E6 - Friday, Jan 12, 2018 at 23:51

Friday, Jan 12, 2018 at 23:51
I on the other hand, have a recently acquired PX that has had THICK deposits of gunk around the throttle body area. It was so hard and baked that I had to remove the intake body and physically wash it clean.
I intend on a catch can, also a treatment with a can of liquimoly decarboniser.
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 10:12

Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 10:12
Just in case you're looking for something to do on a lazy week-end, Paul E6, your engine could probably benefit from decoking the inlet manifold and inlet ports on the head as well :-)
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Reply By: Les - PK Ranger - Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 10:49

Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 10:49
EGR was a very poor answer (cheap and easy) to nox pollution issues.
Once a manifold starts to cake up, it's going to run very poorly and result in much more of an issue with emissions.
There are many photos online of some very caked (almost totally blocked) manifolds.
Anyway, I did catch can first on my PK.
Great, stopped the tar on the MAP sensor, but another 20k I did the electronic EGR fix, and for good measure put a quality 2mm ss plate in to be sure.
You can then block the EGR cooler, which in many cases leads to a loss of coolant if it even buckles / leaks somewhere inconvenient.
The PX1 is fairly easy, to block with a plate, but read up, some say you need to one wiht small hole to allow a bit of sensor reading, or you'll get EGR low flow code come up ?
This of course kinda defeats the tru purpose, but keeps 90% out.
Or, you can get an ECU tune to stop EGR function electronically, also this can be set to eliminate codes, costly though, pay up around a grand, but can also tune better . . . a total blank plate can be fitted for surety you are stopping all carbon reticulation.
If going catch can, make sure it's a good Provent 200 type, there are good copies out there with same specs, but a genuine one is best for quality certainty.
Cheaper, smaller inlet / outlet units don't stop all oil mist, or restrict flows too much.

Should point out, catch can done to collect oil mist residue (can be put back in engine too) is 100% legal.
EGR fixes by electronic, ECU tunes, blank plates are all illegal.
AnswerID: 616058

Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 17:01

Saturday, Jan 13, 2018 at 17:01
Les, the px1 doesn't require a hole in the banking plate. Mine has been in for 5 years now.

Some say the px2 with no def requires a hole and others say they have a full blanking plate with no fault codes.
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Reply By: Sacred Cow - Sunday, Jan 14, 2018 at 12:48

Sunday, Jan 14, 2018 at 12:48
HKB,

A catch can extracts quite a lot of oil out of the crankcase fumes. If there was no catch can, this oil and the exhaust soot through the EGR would cause deposits to build on the piston crown and in the cylinder head. So I am not surprised that you have been told that the compression ratio is higher in engines without a catch can. Oily crankcase fumes can cause premature failure of the turbo so I do not subscribe to the view that no catch can is better than one such as the Provent 200.

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Sunday, Jan 14, 2018 at 23:40

Sunday, Jan 14, 2018 at 23:40
Umm, if I take my vehicle as an example, I had a genuine Provent fitted for about 30000Km, during that time I collected around 100ml of waste from the provent.

In the same time the engine burnt around 3600Ltrs of diesel oil, I would imagine the extra soot created by burning 100ml of engine oil would be pretty insignificant to that created by burning 3600Ltrs of diesel?
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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Tuesday, Jan 16, 2018 at 11:07

Tuesday, Jan 16, 2018 at 11:07
Negligible in that regard, it's if your vehicle also has an EGR system, then your manifold deterioration would make for bad running (& worsening econ, more wear) after time.

Blow by will get worse as engine components age / wear too.
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Tuesday, Jan 16, 2018 at 12:12

Tuesday, Jan 16, 2018 at 12:12
Yep agree the EGR is the main issue.
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Reply By: Sacred Cow - Monday, Jan 15, 2018 at 08:06

Monday, Jan 15, 2018 at 08:06
HKB,

I have a LC200 Series TTD and, if you look at owner's experiences on the LCOOL forum, you will find there is a large variance with the amount of oil a catch-can collects. The average seems to be about 28ml/1000km which is vastly different to your Prado figures. Therefore for an average LC200 the catch-can would collect 840ml of oil over 30,000 km. This is quite a significant quantity of oil having to traverse through a turbo and mix with exhaust gases.

I had a D4D Prado and found at 79,000 km a significant build up of muck in the EGR and inlet manifold. This convinced me of the usefulness of a catch-can.

Now your vehicle is exceptional and obviously has very tight clearances with negligible crankcase blow-by. Therefore fitting a catch-can or disabling the EGR is of little value to you. Unfortunately few people buy such an exceptional vehicle.
AnswerID: 616101

Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Monday, Jan 15, 2018 at 11:06

Monday, Jan 15, 2018 at 11:06
The amount of oil I collected with my catch can is very similar to what others with Prados have collected so there is nothing exceptional with my motor.

If you look at your figures of 840ml of oil, firstly as many have commented on different forums, most of the waste from the provent for instance appears to be a water with some oil mixed in and this is what I also found and is consistent with what i have read, ie oil does not evaporate at normal engine temperatures, the pcv flow is mainly made up of by pass from the piston rings and mainly consists of exhaust gases and water vapor and diesel, it will however carry some highly atomised oil particles from the motor. So one question would be how much of the 840ml of waste you collected is water and how much oil?

Also what would be the percentage of the 840ml you collected compared to the total volume of air and water vapor from the atmosphere that has passed through the turbo in the same period?

Personally I have never heard of anyone having to replace a turbo charger in a small diesel engine as a result of damage proven to have been caused from PVC flow. I have heard though of many who have had to replace turbos due to seal failures causing oil leaks, and turbine van failures attributed to injector failures and glow plug failures in both newish and old motors.

Regarding carbon build as a result of the oil mist fom the PVC increasing the compression ratio, from a practical point if we have two motors that have done 200000Km, the one without the catch can fitted has similar compression figures to a new engine and the one without has 20 PSI lower I know which engine I would prefer to own.

The muck is a different issue, yes I agree the carbon from the EGR is not a good thing hence I will have the EGR turned off down the track. The oil mist I'm not convinced does any damage and at least one that services engines daily indicates he has found it is beneficial so will leave that as is.

My neighbor recently fitted a catch can to his motor, we had similar discussions and the generally consensus with the motoring fraternity of his car make was to fit a catch can but also have some type of upper cylinder lubrication!

Another interesting observation, one of my mates had the injectors of his 120 changed about 6 months ago at around 120000Km, he has no catch can fitted. He instructed the service company to clean the inlet manifold, EGR valve etc when they had it pulled down to remove the expected gunk. When they pulled the motor down they found it to only have a light coating of oil and carbon and there was no need to clean it. This was quite a surprise when you see what others have found, his usage of the car is similar to mine, the car is basically used for touring, pulling a small camper van around the 1700Kg, personally I would have thought with all the towing the motor would be well gunked up but this proved not to be the case. not the case.
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Reply By: PAJ17 - Monday, Jan 15, 2018 at 22:54

Monday, Jan 15, 2018 at 22:54
Pay $250 for a decent catch can kit, install in 30 minutes, there will never be a problem.
AnswerID: 616118

Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Tuesday, Jan 16, 2018 at 08:04

Tuesday, Jan 16, 2018 at 08:04
Or buy a $10 stainless steel blanking plate and youwill never have a problem with a px ranger engine.
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Reply By: PAJ17 - Tuesday, Jan 16, 2018 at 12:17

Tuesday, Jan 16, 2018 at 12:17
I would disagree with that because rangers are on our hoists 24/7, I can only report what I do and have seen for 17 years in our workshop. The last 5 years our most dominant vehicle in the shop is the poo that they call rangers, constantly in and out due to non catch can issues. I'm not about to sit here and throw collective meaningless data to confirm or non confirm anything, the fact is I diagnose and fix these trucks at a rate of around 5/6 a week that's 20 a month 220 a year.
AnswerID: 616129

Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Tuesday, Jan 16, 2018 at 20:09

Tuesday, Jan 16, 2018 at 20:09
PAJ hit the follow up button as this will lead to a direct reply.

I disagree, Remove soot or remove oil mist and the same result will occur. My inlet is as clean as and I have no sensor problems what so ever.

Then again my bucket of poo hasn't had any problems and it has worked hard all its life. Maybe from your workshop experience you could record the 4wd vehicle that has the biggest manifold blocking problem.

$10 for soot and $250 bucks for oil.



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